No, but you are supposed to identify that they are premium so we don't waste time running into a brick wall.FayetteDore wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:36 amFunny, I read them all. Did you work for free?commadore wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:11 amNone of which we can read because they are all PREMIUM!FayetteDore wrote: ↑Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:01 pm Three very interesting articles on colleges in today's NYT:
We Talked to 10 Gaduates About Their College Regrets
There's Only One College Rankings List That Matters
Build Your Own College Rankings
Vanderbilt Education
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Re: Vanderbilt Education
- FayetteDore
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Re: Vanderbilt Education
You're right. My mistake. I went back and added it.
Can't scamper or slither...but I used to swim.
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Re: Vanderbilt Education
My personal experience:
I think Vanderbilt undergrad was like mental calisthenics. I did not specifically learn course content I couldn't have gotten at a lower cost school, but taking a philosophy class from Alistair McIntyre was challenging and stimulating in a way that the same class taught by a grad assistant might not have been.
I was kind of a mediocre high school student and barely got admitted to VU by the skin of my teeth. After VU undergrad I breezed through my master's and PhD at VU and Marquette with straight As. It was still hard work, but I wasn't struggling with fundamentals like some of my classmates did.
None of this directly translated into higher income in my career but I think it's been a more satisfying career with higher achievement in non-monetary terms.
What the data says: lower cost schools are are a better value for the money.
However if you get an athletic scholarship and Vanderbilt is the same cost, take the Vanderbilt offer.
I think Vanderbilt undergrad was like mental calisthenics. I did not specifically learn course content I couldn't have gotten at a lower cost school, but taking a philosophy class from Alistair McIntyre was challenging and stimulating in a way that the same class taught by a grad assistant might not have been.
I was kind of a mediocre high school student and barely got admitted to VU by the skin of my teeth. After VU undergrad I breezed through my master's and PhD at VU and Marquette with straight As. It was still hard work, but I wasn't struggling with fundamentals like some of my classmates did.
None of this directly translated into higher income in my career but I think it's been a more satisfying career with higher achievement in non-monetary terms.
What the data says: lower cost schools are are a better value for the money.
However if you get an athletic scholarship and Vanderbilt is the same cost, take the Vanderbilt offer.
- EagleDore
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Re: Vanderbilt Education
Excellent articles. The build your own rankings is pretty cool too.FayetteDore wrote: ↑Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:01 pm Three very interesting articles on colleges in today's NYT:
We Talked to 10 Gaduates About Their College Regrets
There's Only One College Rankings List That Matters
Build Your Own College Rankings
EDIT: These are PREMIUM articles.
I think Vandy tends to draw more serious students overall which is nice, and of course it offers a top quality education, but so much of college is about what the student makes of the experience not the reputation of the school. Many factors are important. I loved my Vandy experience, but I was lucky that my rich Uncle Sam paid tuition and fees and set me up with a good job after graduating. I would not have attended w/o the scholarship. A sports scholarship is quite a nice thing, but it doesn't guarantee the school is the right fit, employment or success down the road.
- EagleDore
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Re: Vanderbilt Education
I like your term "mental calisthenics" and think I too benefitted from this at VU. I've been getting my kids through college so coming at it from a parent's POV, I've had to consider these issues a lot over the last few years (public v. private, in-state v. out of state)alathIN wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:14 am My personal experience:
I think Vanderbilt undergrad was like mental calisthenics. I did not specifically learn course content I couldn't have gotten at a lower cost school, but taking a philosophy class from Alistair McIntyre was challenging and stimulating in a way that the same class taught by a grad assistant might not have been.
I was kind of a mediocre high school student and barely got admitted to VU by the skin of my teeth. After VU undergrad I breezed through my master's and PhD at VU and Marquette with straight As. It was still hard work, but I wasn't struggling with fundamentals like some of my classmates did.
None of this directly translated into higher income in my career but I think it's been a more satisfying career with higher achievement in non-monetary terms.
What the data says: lower cost schools are are a better value for the money.
However if you get an athletic scholarship and Vanderbilt is the same cost, take the Vanderbilt offer.
I'm getting ready to put my 3rd child into UF - great fit for her, full tuition state scholarship, quality school, good ranking, etc. She chose it over an art school for several reasons, but finances played a part. My 2nd child graduates from UF in May - debt free on a career track. And, my oldest of 3 was bummed he didn't get into UF. He got into some other out of state schools and state schools. He went to USF, a really good school, but not with the UF reputation. He wound up loving USF and is doing very well since he graduated. He has no debt.
Very few should go into serious debt due to school or for the sake of a prestigious school name, as college debt can be crushing. Here's an example from this past year that I read, “I graduated in 1992 with $14,000 in loans. My balance is now up to $74,000 because of deferments and only paying the minimum." Attending a prestigious school is great if it is the right fit for the kid & works financially. Fortunately for us our state schools have worked out well with good options and good "fits."
- mathguy
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Re: Vanderbilt Education
I have real concerns about college loan debt, and I don't want to pick on someone quoted in an article whose life I don't know ... but even from 1992, $14,000 of loan debt should not fall into the crushing debt category. My wife and I combined for almost twice that debt - with education degrees for crying out loud - and were able to pay it off without any substantial difficulty.EagleDore wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:50 am
Very few should go into serious debt due to school or for the sake of a prestigious school name, as college debt can be crushing. Here's an example from this past year that I read, “I graduated in 1992 with $14,000 in loans. My balance is now up to $74,000 because of deferments and only paying the minimum." Attending a prestigious school is great if it is the right fit for the kid & works financially. Fortunately for us our state schools have worked out well with good options and good "fits."
Re: Vanderbilt Education
My degree helped me land a good first job. After that, it's a piece of paper in the closet. How you perform in that job is what gives you the next opportunity. James Franklin was wrong. If not, then how did he land the Penn State job out of East Stroudsburg.
For years, we've sold ourselves the value of the Vandy degree, because generally speaking, we've sucked at sports. Don't get me wrong, it gave me an opportunity, but nothing more. I'm 46 years old. Nobody around me gives a flip about my Vandy degree.
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Re: Vanderbilt Education
Another perspective:
If you are truly driven, it doesn't matter where you go to college or for which college you play sports.
But the vast majority of us are not internally driven to the extent that those around us don't impact the level of effort we exert.
I know that was/is true for me. I went to a small church school my freshman year, did almost no work and got almost straight A's (B's in PE). Then I went to VU and had to put in a fair amount of effort to maintain a B average. The difference? The quality of the competition.
It's why most athletes find they get better when they compete against athletes that are somewhat better then they are.
If you are truly driven, it doesn't matter where you go to college or for which college you play sports.
But the vast majority of us are not internally driven to the extent that those around us don't impact the level of effort we exert.
I know that was/is true for me. I went to a small church school my freshman year, did almost no work and got almost straight A's (B's in PE). Then I went to VU and had to put in a fair amount of effort to maintain a B average. The difference? The quality of the competition.
It's why most athletes find they get better when they compete against athletes that are somewhat better then they are.
Always hopeful; rarely optimistic.
- EagleDore
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Re: Vanderbilt Education
Fair point, $14k in 1992, wasn't likley crushing debt. The point that I didn't clearly articulate with the example is that even moderate debt, not retired quickly can grow a lot and still be quite a burden years into the future.mathguy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:08 pmI have real concerns about college loan debt, and I don't want to pick on someone quoted in an article whose life I don't know ... but even from 1992, $14,000 of loan debt should not fall into the crushing debt category. My wife and I combined for almost twice that debt - with education degrees for crying out loud - and were able to pay it off without any substantial difficulty.EagleDore wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:50 am
Very few should go into serious debt due to school or for the sake of a prestigious school name, as college debt can be crushing. Here's an example from this past year that I read, “I graduated in 1992 with $14,000 in loans. My balance is now up to $74,000 because of deferments and only paying the minimum." Attending a prestigious school is great if it is the right fit for the kid & works financially. Fortunately for us our state schools have worked out well with good options and good "fits."
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Re: Vanderbilt Education
The cost of college education has vastly outpaced inflation.mathguy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:08 pmI have real concerns about college loan debt, and I don't want to pick on someone quoted in an article whose life I don't know ... but even from 1992, $14,000 of loan debt should not fall into the crushing debt category. My wife and I combined for almost twice that debt - with education degrees for crying out loud - and were able to pay it off without any substantial difficulty.EagleDore wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:50 am
Very few should go into serious debt due to school or for the sake of a prestigious school name, as college debt can be crushing. Here's an example from this past year that I read, “I graduated in 1992 with $14,000 in loans. My balance is now up to $74,000 because of deferments and only paying the minimum." Attending a prestigious school is great if it is the right fit for the kid & works financially. Fortunately for us our state schools have worked out well with good options and good "fits."
1992 might as well be a different planet.
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Re: Vanderbilt Education
I freely admit that, at the time, I was there for the diploma as much as the education. For example, at least half a dozen times (once in major, the rest outside) I took a course because it was reputed to be an easy A or B. In other words, hypothetically at least, I could have gotten a "better" education had that been my sole aim. I also graduated with a number of hours that was at or near the minimum. So had I been gung ho for a "better education", I could have taken 18 hours per semester throughout instead of the usual 15. In the working world, and even now in the retired world, I have never regretted those decisions. As others have said, the diploma helps you get your foot in the door, and it's up to you (hard work, working and playing well with others, etc.) after that.
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Re: Vanderbilt Education
Something that I believe sets private schools like Vanderbilt apart from state schools is the much greater variety of perspectives of classmates from all over. I have always maintained the most valuable part of my VU education in the 60's was listening to debates about integration and the Viet Nam war that were very different than what I heard at home and I suspect at most Southern state schools. I learned as much or more from fellow students than professors. It really is educational to be around intelligent peers brought up thinking differently. It opened my mind and that is what education is supposed to do. My parents footed the bill, fortunately.
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Re: Vanderbilt Education
To agree with the previous post, by far the greatest benefit of going to Vanderbilt for me was the people I met there -- not just fellow students, but also professors.
Along the same lines, it took me a few years to realize that this is a two-edged sword. I met wonderful people from all over the country, but almost none of them live near me now. Som of my best friends from college now live in Seattle, Kansas City, Houston, Atlanta, Oregon and even Puerto Rico. If I wrote a list of my top ten friends from college, about 3 live in or near Nashville. This wouldn't be the case if I'd gone to a public university, don't think.
Along the same lines, it took me a few years to realize that this is a two-edged sword. I met wonderful people from all over the country, but almost none of them live near me now. Som of my best friends from college now live in Seattle, Kansas City, Houston, Atlanta, Oregon and even Puerto Rico. If I wrote a list of my top ten friends from college, about 3 live in or near Nashville. This wouldn't be the case if I'd gone to a public university, don't think.
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Re: Vanderbilt Education
Completely agree with those who talk about the people at VU being the best thing about it. Your network you build is very valuable and the opportunities that come from that are impactful for all of one's working life.
Re: Vanderbilt Education
There is no way I would get into Vanderbilt today with the academic record I had in the 80's, but the nature of the game has completely changed. The friends I had at Vanderbilt were smart and highly motivated, so many would have done what was necessary to get into a school like Vanderbilt. At least that's what I tell my Vanderbilt graduate son, whose stats and academic resume blew mine out of the water.historybill wrote: ↑Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:02 am I went to Vanderbilt in the 1980s and am convinced that both me and about 4/5 of the friends I had then would not have gotten into the university today. Also, my son had a higher ACT score (33) than I did and a much higher GPA than I did, but there was no way he was going to get in, because he wasn't president of his class or a concert pianist or whatever.
But I've followed his academic load closely and can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is working harder on his biosystems engineering/environmental engineering degree at UT-Knoxville than I did when I doubled majored in Math/Russian at VU all those years ago. It's not even close. He's working his ass off.
I have had three children that have recently graduated or are still in college, and they all took different paths. One graduated from Vanderbilt, one graduated from a Tennessee state school (not UTK), and one is attending a large out-of-state school. I think they were all happy with their decision. I think finding the right fit for you based upon what you want to do and where you will be comfortable socially is the most important thing. Your academic and social experience is what you make of it, and you typically can find what you are looking for at any institution. My out of state child is in a honors/scholarship program that is similar to the Haslam Scholars program at UTK, and that designation has created opportunities for her that she may not have if she was just another face at Harvard or any other elite school.
Having said that, I do think the overall opportunities and social networks available at Vanderbilt were far superior to the ones offered at the in-state school. I have a friend whose child went to Belmont and then to UT Medical school that was told by their advisor that Belmont had never gotten a student into Vanderbilt Medical school. If you want to go to the top graduate schools, your chances are better if you stood out at Vanderbilt than if you were a outstanding student at a less competitive one, but it isn't impossible.